Sub-optimal brownie design with lobsters

questions concerning analysis/theory using program MARK

Sub-optimal brownie design with lobsters

Postby DMills » Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:25 am

Hi,

I have been handed a data set (note I did not get to design the study!) which has 20 periods of which 7 are recapture surveys and 13 are tag and release periods - there are logistic reasons as to why things were done this way.

The animals concerned are post-larval (read 'very small') lobsters that have been microwire tagged. They must be killed to read the tag number, so we are talking recoveries not multiple recaptures.

Clearly the first thing to do to cope with the design is to constrain the f parameters to zero for all periods where releases but no recapture occurred. Is this all I need to do for Brownie models to cope with this design?

When I run this design, I get sensible results for a Brownie model 2 - S(.)f(t). S is estimated at about 0.15 per yr, which is higher than expected, but in the ball park. However for Model 1 - S(t)f(t) - I find that for several periods S is estimated at 1 with very small errors. Invariably these coencide to occasions where f is set to zero for consecutive periods.

Does this point to an intrinsic problem with the way I am setting up the analysis, or is it more likely that where there are consecutive periods with no recaptures, there is insufficient data for meaningful time-depenent survival estimates?

I guess the ultimate question here is can I put any faith in the model 2 estimate if model 1 appears to be misbehaving :?:

Cheers
Dave (in Tasmania)
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holes in recovery matrices

Postby Bill Kendall » Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:53 am

Your inclinations are basically correct. Setting f=0 where there is no effort makes sense. Based on what you've described, the fact that you got a reasonable result under a constant S model, and some that did not make sense under the St model also is not surprising.

Because I do not have your recovery matrix in front of me I cannot comment on which parameters I believe would not be estimable, but here is a general guideline, based on the probability structure for the recovery matrix below. (Note that the structure of the matrix will be left-justified by the time you see this on the bulletin. Therefore, to follow what I say below you will want to re-align the rows so that it is an upper triangular matrix with the cells where f is alone are on the diagonal).

Code: Select all
f1    S1f2    S1S2f3    S1S2S3f4
        f2      S2f3      S2S3f4
                  f3        S3f4
                              f4


When there is not recovery effort in a given year you basically set an entire column of the recovery matrix to 0. If the rest of the recovery matrix is "rich", i.e., the cells are filled, you should still be able to estimate all S's. You can see this from the above matrix. For example, the most direct way to get an estimate of S1 is algebraically from the two cells in column 2. You have direct information on f2 from direct recoveries, and direct information on the product of S1f2. This constitutes two equations and two unknowns, which is easily solved. If f2=0, then there is no information on S1 in column 2. However, looking at column 3, you can derive an estimate of S1 from the combination of data from the top two cells in this column, and derive an estimate of S2 from the combination data from the bottom two cells in that column. Normally you would not do these things, because S1 and S2 are also found in other cells in the model. The Brownie et al. model uses all information from the cells, to maximize precision. However, this at least tells you whether the minimum data necessary for estimation is available.

The bigger problem lies in years where you do not release any animals. In this case you are taking out an entire row of the recovery matrix. For example, if you did not release any animals in year 2. In this case, if you play the same algebraic game, you will see that you lose your ability to estimate S1 and S2. You don't have direct information on f2 and therefore cannot use it to extract S1 from the product S1f2. In addition, you lose information on the product S2f3, and therefore again cannot use it to extract S2. The best you can do in this case is estimate the product S1S2. In general, then, when you do not release animals in year t, you cannot get separate estimates of St-1 and St.

Cavell Brownie taught me this approach a long time ago, and I have found it very useful. This same algebraic game can be played fairly easily with the CJS model, but gets a lot tougher when you move to more complex models.

This was a long answer to a short question, but it might help you tease apart what can be estimated. It can get more complex when you have years with neither releases nor recovery effort.

Cheers,
Bill
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Brilliant! - thanks Bill

Postby DMills » Thu Oct 20, 2005 7:11 pm

That makes sense of things very nicely. I scratched my way through Section 10.2 in the mark book (counting parameters - Brownie parameterization), but now that you have put it into context with my study, the implications are much clearer.
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Re: holes in recovery matrices

Postby egc » Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:16 pm

Thanks, Bill. Counting parameters in the Brownie models is not trivial (actually, it is fairly straightforward when you have releases and recoveries in all years - but, more and more datasets seem to be sufficiently 'strange' that a more expanded version of how to count parameters is clearly needed. I'll be stealing the gist of your text fairly soon for the revision to chapter 10). :-)

Actually, thats basically how the book improves - its organic structure means it evolves as people provide better ways to explain certain key concepts...


Bill Kendall wrote:
<stuff clipped here>

(Note that the structure of the matrix will be left-justified by the time you see this on the bulletin. Therefore, to follow what I say below you will want to re-align the rows so that it is an upper triangular matrix with the cells where f is alone are on the diagonal).

Code: Select all
f1    S1f2    S1S2f3    S1S2S3f4
        f2      S2f3      S2S3f4
                  f3        S3f4
                              f4




I edited the formatting so that Bills recovery matrix aligned (making use of the [code] markup feature - it won't look so in the email this posting will generate, but it will on the forum itself).

When there is not recovery effort in a given year you basically set an entire column of the recovery matrix to 0. If the rest of the recovery matrix is "rich", i.e., the cells are filled, you should still be able to estimate all S's. You can see this from the above matrix. For example, the most direct way to get an estimate of S1 is algebraically from the two cells in column 2. You have direct information on f2 from direct recoveries, and direct information on the product of S1f2. This constitutes two equations and two unknowns, which is easily solved. If f2=0, then there is no information on S1 in column 2. However, looking at column 3, you can derive an estimate of S1 from the combination of data from the top two cells in this column, and derive an estimate of S2 from the combination data from the bottom two cells in that column. Normally you would not do these things, because S1 and S2 are also found in other cells in the model. The Brownie et al. model uses all information from the cells, to maximize precision. However, this at least tells you whether the minimum data necessary for estimation is available.

The bigger problem lies in years where you do not release any animals. In this case you are taking out an entire row of the recovery matrix. For example, if you did not release any animals in year 2. In this case, if you play the same algebraic game, you will see that you lose your ability to estimate S1 and S2. You don't have direct information on f2 and therefore cannot use it to extract S1 from the product S1f2. In addition, you lose information on the product S2f3, and therefore again cannot use it to extract S2. The best you can do in this case is estimate the product S1S2. In general, then, when you do not release animals in year t, you cannot get separate estimates of St-1 and St.

Cavell Brownie taught me this approach a long time ago, and I have found it very useful. This same algebraic game can be played fairly easily with the CJS model, but gets a lot tougher when you move to more complex models.

This was a long answer to a short question, but it might help you tease apart what can be estimated. It can get more complex when you have years with neither releases nor recovery effort.

Cheers,
Bill
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